HomeBreaking NewsTwo Proud Gun Nuts Second-Amendment Each Other To Death In Road Rage Incident

Two Proud Gun Nuts Second-Amendment Each Other To Death In Road Rage Incident

Two men are dead in Ionia, Michigan after a road rage incident escalated into a shootout Wednesday. Police say that James Pullum, 43, and Robert Taylor, 56 apparently argued after Taylor became enraged over something that occurred while driving though the details are not clear as to exactly what precipitated the incident.

Witnesses say that Pullum who had his wife and mother in the vehicle with him pulled into the parking lot of a car wash and Taylor who was at the time tailgating him followed him in. Both men exited their vehicles and began to argue as the argument escalated, Taylor pulled his gun and began to fire. Pullum, who was also carrying a gun, drew his and returned fire. Both men apparently died at the scene.

Pullums mother-in-law says that her son-in-law was protecting his family and that he was a “great person, a great family man and a great businessman.” He owned a service station in Ionia. Other details are vague and police say they are having difficulty piecing together what happened since both men are dead. They also said that both men had concealed carry permits and were legally carrying their weapons.

While it may be true — as the NRA says — that a good man with a gun can stop a bad man with a gun, they fail to mention that both may die in the process.

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About Bob Cull

I'm retired and live in the Finger Lakes region of Upstate NY. I have strong opinions and my political bent has not changed since I was in high school. Most of my family thinks that I need to find a "real" hobby to fill my time in retirement, but I am content to share my opinions with others and exercise my "right" as a cranky old retired dude to express my views--which are based on many years of real world experience.

197 comments

  1. This is one of the funniest things I have read in a while. MORON LUBE! Bwahahaha!!!!

  2. Retired U.S. Justice John Stevens recently recommended a change to the U.S. Constitution with the following change to the 2nd Amendment: “…the right of the people to bear arms when serving the MELITEA shall not be infringed.
    http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com/retired-justice-john-paul-stevens-calls-for-six-new-constitutional-amendments/legal-issues/2014/03/06/84082

  3. What a better reason to die than protecting that which you love. This is why you carry a gun so when some dumb ass pulls one on you or your family you have a fighting chance. Who knows if the man didn’t have a gun the guy might have killed not only him but his family as well. I agree if neither had a gun no one would have gotten shot but that doesn’t mean nobody would have died. Unfortunately guns were invented so everyone should carry them. “God made man, Guns made all men equal.” Ok that last part was totally uncalled for but I’m sure it will piss of some liberal douche YaY.

    • hey I’m happy with the last part..and equally happy when two gun nuts shoot eachother to death rather than accidently killing an innocent bystander while these two gunslingers think this is the wild wild west. No different for me than when two criminals take each other out.I guess no one told the gun nuts that they are won’t be the only road raging gun carrying person on the road. Too bad..but if there is anything I’ve learned common sense has nothing to do with gun ownership.

    • What does “piss of” some liberal douche mean? I am not a liberal douche, but a liberal. If, in my opinion, one gun nut and another gun nut wish to man up and kill each other, I say that’s great. It’s when they decide to kill innocent people who don’t get hard-ons by carrying weapons that we have a problem in our society. We are doomed because so many people think that guns equal power and they feel powerless due to their stupidity in all other aspects of their lives (save the gun part).

    • Guns made both men equally dead.

    • Perhaps if they weren’t carrying weapons both of them or at least one of them might not have been so tough. They might actually both still be alive.

  4. If you read the actual news article on this event it went very different. Taylor was the aggressor and simply started shooting. Pullum was already mortally wounded when he retreated back to his car where his firearm was secured and shot back once killing Taylor saving his mother-in-law and wife in the process. Taylor had his license revoked in 2006 so it looks to be just a criminal trying to kill an innocent man and his family.
    Using tragedy to promote an agenda is pathetic and shows weakness.

  5. Dumb hillbillies.

  6. Two down, a whole bunch more to go!

  7. INSANITY!!!! I’m 59 years old, married to a man who has Bi polar Disorder. For years he’s harped about getting a gun, oh NO, not in my house, and not around my child. His melt downs at times were quite alarming due to the fact that he would go on and off his Meds. My Dad was WWII Vet. I learned how to use a gun at age 12. We had a gun closet, I’m 1 of 17 children, we all learned how to use guns. The closet was USUALLY locked, and when it wasn’t we didn’t go near it. I have nothing against sane, rational, and SENSIBLE folks owning guns, my problem is some people think a gun is the only way to solve a dispute. I remember one day my Dads gun closet was left open, and I peeked into my parents room and saw my brother messing with a gun, then he saw me!! He put it down and went down stairs to the kitchen phone and called the Police…………..I was listening in on another phone, he was BEGGING them to come and get him…………..looking back it was pretty funny, because we all KNEW NOT TO TOUCH THOSE GUNS WITHOUT DADS PERMISSION!!! Those Cops had a belly laugh!!! One of them was a bit sympathetic, he told my brother to get to Daddy before I did, and just fess up, that way, it’ll show your Dad you understand you were wrong, and that you;’re taking responsibility…….We live in a time of UTTER MADNESS, and it doesn’t appear anyone seems to realize JUST HOW BAD WE’VE BECOME!!!! I still don’t own a gun, but I have nothing against anyone owning one, my problem is if you are inclined to pull it out every time you “feel” threatened, or to “prove” something is not the way I learned how and what a gun was for. This is sad!!! 2 men are DEAD!!! And for what!!? It’s just SAD!!!!

    • Just one more proof of why the U.S. needs to have strict (and enforced) gun control laws like civilized countries have. Until we do, we will continue seeing incidents like this one. But what is even sadder is that we will see innocent children killed, as happened in Newtown, CT.

  8. This has nothing to do with the second amendment and everything to do with the causes of violence in our dysfunctional society. Until we address those causes, this and the rest of what you rightly lament here will continue, and worsen.

    • It has a lot to do with that, and a lot to do with the second amendment. To say it has “nothing” to do with the second is just silly. If the second had never been written, and we had sane gun laws, the psychos would just be beating each other up.

  9. 2 trigger-happy barrel boffers who are never going to hurt anyone innocent. You’ll forgive me for not feeling much in the way of pity for either one of them.

    • Well, only one of them was innocent at this point. Taylor would seem to be the ‘bad guy’ at this point. Would it have made more sense for Taylor to have pulled his gun and killed Pullman who was unarmed? I agree that some people have such lack of control that they are a danger. Unfortunately, no law allows us to discriminate the hot headed from the cool minded, nor has science offered us a method to test for it. Your solution is to take all firearms form the equation, which leaves only the truly criminals to have them. We can agree to disagree on that solution.

      • NO! That’s NOT our solution. No one said to take all guns from everyone. That’s your red herring to avoid talking about he obvious problem: a proliferation of weaponry to defy logic.

        Two middle-aged men are dead because both were too stupid to give up. Who won? Can you answer that? Did society win? Are we supposed to raise our glasses in a toast to “thinning the herd?”

        My husband has a concealed carry permit (because his job requires him to have a lot of someone else’s money – and thousands of dollars of tools – with him. He only carried the gun if he works at night. Because usually, he’s complete alone on deserted highways going to and from his work.

        One night, he hit a deer, and the deer was firmly lodged in his van’s bumper. He had no one to help him, and no one to call for help. He didn’t even think to get his weapon from the van while he tried to dislodge the deer, nor while he waited for the police to arrive to verify the situation for a police report – for insurance purposes.

        Love your guns if you want. But stop making stupid excuses about your sick obsessions. Just call it a fetish and get psychiatric help. OK?

        • I’m, uh… I’m not really seeing the relevance here. How does your husband prying a deer from his bumper have anything to do with gun violence?

          • I think she’s saying it never occurred to him to grab his gun and cling to it for “safety” while he waited. Because he isn’t an insecure and frightened little boy.

          • You don’t have to be an “insecure and frightnened little boy” to carry, although I’m sure there are a few that are. Having experience in hunting, in this particular case with the deer, I might have gotten the handgun at first. Mainly because if the deer were still alive, they have been known to kill people in their death throes. Putting it out of its misery would be a piece of mercy. That done though, many people would probably put the gun up.

            You can’t just paint all people who carry or who have a desire to carry as insecure or frightened. Many off duty cops and military personnel often carry. Many police unions make sure that any laws passed will exempt active and retired police officers from any limiting factors, like NY’s recent 7 round cap. And so you wind up with what we had here in FL, where a retired cop shot a guy in the movie theater for texting during the previews. To be logically consistent, if you feel that all gun owners/pro 2A supporters are frightened and afraid, you’ll have to paint the police and military with that same broad brush.

            I’m not sure about the rest of you, but I’m not all that keen on the idea of being a second class citizen when it comes to the second amendment. I do not currently own a firearm, and I’m not even seriously searching for one at the moment. But I do feel very strongly about the ideals of freedom. Any laws concerning firearms should apply not just to us, but to the police and military if we are to be truly equal. That even includes the security assigned to our politicians.

      • 1. Erik did not say that was his solution. You just made that up. 2. Science does have a method of testing for these things. Several methods, actually.

  10. Only in ‘Merica. Um….

    The 2nd Amendment says, “A well regulated militia,” not an UNregulated mass of armed citizens. It says, “Being necessary to the security of a free state,” not being necessary to the perpetuation of the firearms industry. It says, “The right of the people to keep & bear arms,” not to buy and conceal the latest in man-slaughtering, human/animal SHREDDING technology. Those of whom are weak enough to subscribe to gun ownership are the ones of whom wish to rewrite the 2nd Amendment, not those who wish for sensible gun control, i.e., background checks and making it illegal for persons with criminal records and the mentally ill to (very EASILY, like Nancy Lanza’s son) acquire guns and automatic weapons—that SHRED their victims.

    • Viir Exeter is right A well regulated militia they want rapaid fire guns they should do one weekend a mounth and 30 days a year learning how to use them

      • And they should also be subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice every time they fire that penis substitute… fire a weapon without good reason, spend a month or two in the stockade. Kill another person except in self-defense or the defense of others, expand that to a decade or two in the stockade…

  11. Yes, let’s get the lunatic fringe and all the militia forming and put them on opposite sides of a big field. Have someone yell, repeal the second amendment, and watch them just shoot each other mindlessly. Those two men would be alive today if they hadn’t been legally carrying their guns. Stupid waste of human life.

    • I do find it interesting to note that the majority of those who hate guns tend to express the most violent views.

      • Oh, big mistake, Jeff. I don’t hate guns. I hate it when guns are used irresponsibly. I have a gun and it has a trigger guard on it, the key to which I challenge anyone to find. That’s responsible gun use. This was not. And arming with the excuse that you have the right to own assault weapons or 32 other types of guns because the second amendment permits it is irresponsible. I have a gun. It’s all I need for home defense. Maybe another household could use one for hunting. But that’s all. The rest of it is hysteria defending itself with an amendment that doesn’t even begin to permit what’s going on.

  12. I had seen this and it put a big smile on my face. Now, if we could get all those gun nuts in Congress to stand in circular firing squad and pull the trigger maybe we could get some sensible firearms controls.

  13. They never would have Second-Amendmented each other to death if they hadnt First-Amendmented each other into a frenzy first.

    Thats why we should repeal the First Amendment. If people cant talk to each other, then they cant get mad enough to kill each other, and it will save peoples lives. Why are people who support the First Amendment so opposed to saving peoples lives? The lives of CHILDREN even!

    • Wow. That is some new level of dumb, superaboned1, how can you even type?

    • We should have no rights, After all people die in the name of freedom. Everybody should do as they’re told and nobody will die! Protect lives we must in the name of.. Staying alive? Fuck freedom guys i just want to live. Infact you should be jailed if you speak your mind this way you don’t die and you don’t infect others.

      All of us posting here are doomed to be jailed :(

  14. Two idiots with guns less in the world to deal with, I say let them kill each other and continue doing so until all gun nuts are gone. Good riddance!!!

    • beginnings of a new reality show. if both parties were home in one house watching football and a disagreement was looming an interesting potential, both families, a couple extra guns around. suddenly the front and rear home doors are kicked in, you all can write the ending. i would like to be the fly on the wall. i love guns, it’s the people that ya gotta look out fer

    • One guy followed the other the same guy drew and fired first, the other was defending himself. Black and white they’re it’s a shame he died in self defence as well.

      • If the story turns out to be true, yes. The second man was defending himself and his family. The sad thing is, he was killed anyway.

  15. Dem who values honesty over politics

    The coverage on this story sucks.

    Real story: Asshole with illegal gun (yes, look it up, it should have been forfeited due to DUI conviction) tailgates and road rages. Dude with wife and mother in car pulls into parking lot to avoid asshole. Asshole comes after him with illegal gun. Dude pulls legal gun to defend himself and his family. Asshole fires first, innocent dude dies in front of his family but manages to take asshole with him.

    I’m glad you are all having a good laugh at the murder of an innocent man.

    • “Taylor had a misdemeanor conviction in 2006 for driving while intoxicated and separately for carrying a gun in the car, Ionia County Prosecutor Robert Schafer told ABC News. As a result, his concealed weapons license was revoked for three years. He eventually applied and received a new license four years later in 2010, Schafer said.”

      • Honestly, that law should change. If someone gets a DUI while carrying a weapon should lose the conceal carry license permanently.

    • Additionally, I don’t know any Democrats who refer to themselves as “Dems.” Maybe you’re just a beautiful, unique snowflake, though.

    • I can speak only for myself but I found nothing amusing in this incident. As someone who has owned guns since I was 12 years old and got my first hunting license, I am disgusted by those who think that they have the right to own any weapon that is made in any quantity. These same morons invariably think that the intent of the 2nd amendment was that the people should be prepared to violently overthrow the legally elected government when it had no such meaning.

      This was a tragedy brought about by the old west mentality that everyone should be allowed to walk around “strapped” at all times. The old west wasn’t even the old west, what people think about it is a Hollywood construct that never existed.

      • Never mind that the government has far more powerful weaponry at its disposal than any civilian could possibly hope to get their hands on, so the chances of a citizens’ revolt against a hypothetical tyrannical government (which in itself is an event with a very slim probability of occurring) having any degree of success are probably about as likely as winning the lottery jackpot two weeks in succession. The other favourite argument is that they’ll use their guns to defend themselves against anyone in officialdom wanting to confiscate their guns. Needless to say, in that unlikely event, if they shot and injured or killed the person from officialdom, they’d have committed a greater crime, so officialdom would have even more reason to confiscate their guns (and would probably return wearing full body armour).

        Personally, I’m not keen on mass ownership of guns and there seem to be too many idiots in charge; however, the number of guns in circulation in the US plus the relatively porous border with Mexico makes any attempts to severely restrict the flow or supply of weapons doomed. There are also many legitimate uses for guns – home defence (which various legal rulings state is the current purpose of the [awkwardly worded] 2nd Amendment), properly supervised shooting ranges / gun clubs, reminding wild animals that the hedge / fence at the edge of your property exists for a reason (other than an entertaining challenge for them to overcome) etc.

        However, background checks could potentially reduce the number of idiots with excessive / inappropriate guns (yes, they won’t stop die-hard criminals who obtain theirs on the black market, but could deter opportunists), while quasi-mandatory training (i.e. not mandatory, but not undergoing training could count against you if you have gun-related problems with the law) may help more people realise that guns in real life are quite different to guns as portrayed in fiction. Maybe even increase the number and visibility of anger management / dispute resolution classes, to encourage hotheads to seek alternative solutions to waving their gun around if they get angry with someone…

        • In 2010, over 6 million applications to purchase a firearm resulted in 13 convictions. Additional checks is expected to increase the number of applications by 40%, meaning 8 more convictions for the additional millions spent.

          I’d rather see that money spent on law enforcement at a local level so it can be used to reduce ALL crimes, not just those 8 who tried to buy a firearm illegally.

          • I think you would be amazed at how that number would skyrocket if the gun show loopholes were closed. Right now, illegal gun runners and criminals can walk in and purchase whatever and how many they want, no background checks. I guess that’s A-OK with you?

          • These numbers are misleading. That only counts convictions. There are quite a lot more that are either never prosecuted or found not guilty (because intent to defraud can be difficult to prove). However, the gun show loophole is really a major problem. Felons, wife beaters, terrorists, DUI offenders, and people deemed mentally incompetent know how to get around the background checks. Whenever the ad on the tv screams “GUNS! GUNS! GUNS!” They all come running.

  16. See, this is why etiquette is so important. If they were going to have a duel – they should have done it properly. Haste makes waste.

  17. Definitely two new nominees for the 2013 Darwin Awards…

  18. How bizarre. What would possess a sane individual to shoot another over a perceived slight in traffic? Sometimes it seems as if sanity has left the building.

  19. Jefferson Facepalm

    So Which one was the “good guy” with the gun? Bet both their moms say they both were! Which one wins on “stand your ground” Why didn’t they use knives if knives are just as dangerous, why didn’t they settle it with their cars if cars are just as bad killers as guns. Oh wait I know because when your enraged and want to kill someone for sure and fast NOTHIN beats a gun.

  20. guns let people act stupid. they think they are all big and bad. they don’t behave like an adult and act stupid then instead of apologizing they puff up and threaten. before you know it someone got shot in this case to stupid men got shot and killed. and now their families and friends have to deal with a pointless death yet again

  21. Haha, Stupid Americans. All NRA members should follow their lead.

    • How pathetically envious of you. Why not post your hatred on a site originating in your own backward country? Wherever it is — not that anyone really cares.

      • Envious of what? Two morons who shoot each other dead over nothing? Get over yourself. No one besides Pygmies in Borneo envy the US

        • well said Antony….

        • After a lifetime of travel, and visits to more than 40 countries, I can say with certainty that the rest of the world deeply envies the USA.

        • Brian…maybe you shop stop using US technology and US websites, eh? Yer educated enough to know what I’m talkin aboot here, eh? Go play some hockey and tickle some moose nuts, ya hoser, and stop using computers and internet, both of which were made in that country that you hate, ok?

          • You do know the US buys most of its technological patents from other countries right? You do know that i’m Canadian and have never seen a moose right? You do know i don’t drive a dog sled right? You do know that buffalo gets more snow then where i live right? You do know that as a Canadian i can get a gun licence and buy an AK 47 right? You do know that telephone you use was made here in Canada EH? EH hows Obama care?

  22. Yes, this is absolutely how two people in a modern, civilized society should work out their disagreements. NOT. I’d give money for a good ol’ throwin’ of the hands in this scenario. Too much violence in this country… :-(

    • I argue the same. Punch each other a few times, someone concedes, everyone goes home to dinner. While it certainly is possible to die in a fistfight, it’s certainly a lot harder to kill someone with your bare hands than it is with a gun.

    • So, you think there is too much violence, yet you’re still advocating violence in the form of a fistfight? Smallwood? Perfect.

      • With no referee available violence seems to be the one indisputable way to show who is on top. A fist fight is a fist fight and everybody has been in a fist fight. Everyone who has been in a gun fight is either a murderer or dead unfortunately. I suggest that fist fights prove who is on top, where as guns don’t prove anything and are merely a tool for your own life not a dispute. It being a tool to protect your life or that of your families i also suggest it is a once in a lifetime moment should you have need to protect your life using a gun in a country like the US.

        If you’re having male dominance problems the common answer should be get training so you can win a fist fight. Otherwise you make up for it by chasing people in your car with a gun over a traffic dispute. There is conflict then there is murder. Conflict is natural we all want to feel on-top of our own world i deem fist fighting a healthy way to express competition. If you don’t want to practice to be good at said competition then avoid conflict at all costs, a gun is not the answer. Its the coward in a cowards hand.

  23. Anger, men, guns. Three problems that won’t go away.

  24. James shot first!

    • Unfortunately, they were both past or well into the reproductive age. The Darwin Effect only works to the benefit of society if their stupidity kills them BEFORE they reproduce.

      • Actually, men can contribute to reproduction until a ripe old age. It’s women who cannot after menopause. It’s why you see old men with really young children. Of course, they have wives who are in their childbearing years.

  25. I think we need to reinstitute those well-regulated militias the 2nd amendment talks about (the first part that is completely ignored by the NRA). That way, those who want to have guns could do their duty and serve their country when called upon do do so.

  26. Before the proliferation of guns, someone would walk away from a thing like that with a bloody lip.
    You’ve got a couple of people driving with loaded guns, who were prepared to die over a perceived slight in traffic, and so they did.
    Somehow it all worked itself out…

  27. The presence of guns seems to escalate the response to frustration and anger, from yelling and punching to shooting. It’s a problem, but apparently it’s one we want in the United States. Because we can’t be free unless a disagreement can be settled with a shoot-out, right?

    • Some men feel that the only way they’re “men” or have any power or control is to have a gun. And when you have a gun, you are more likely to feel “brave” and to threaten and/or use it. It’s quick & easy and VERY impersonal. You can shoot from very far away, depending on your firepower. And then walk away and not let it bother you. My personal feeling is that once you get comfortable killing animals and putting animals down like they do in rural areas (thinking Old West here, as well), it’s easier to cross that line and use it on a person. Just like in heavy crime areas, if it’s what you grow up with, it simply becomes part of your culture. It becomes your first and only reaction to any problem. This is where the loss of “civilization” occurs. And it has, in this country. I don’t think the “gun culture” makes you “respect” guns more (or life). It just makes you a better aim, IMHO.

      • Actually nothing teaches respect for the power of a gun like a piece of Bambi or Thumper on the dinner table. Rural kids see these animals running in the wild and realize how final death from a gun is when they are eating the critter that was running around this morning. We have lost that connection with food from the grocery store and TV / video games.
        Road rage is another matter. Honestly, this is a manifestation of an autism spectrum disorder. Now he would be diagnosed as autistic with a rage disorder. Autism isn’t on the rise, but awareness is. Kids get diagnosed and helped, but we just consider autistic adults to be jerks..

        • What does having an Autism spectrum disorder have to do with two idiots carrying guns and killing each other over something stupid as road rage? Because two men behaved immaturely and killed one another doesn’t have anything to do with Autism. Your comment that Autism isn’t on the rise does not match the current demographics and considering an adult who has autism to be a “jerk” is just an opinion from a seeemingly biased individual. My adult son has autism…he’s no jerk; he’s a loving human being. Shame on you for your ignorant remarks.

          • Actually autism spectrum disorder covers a wide range from what we think of as classic autism to the reclassified Asperger’s syndrome. Because autism spectrum covers a wide range of developmental issues, many autistic people are nice people who have cognitive difficulties, but there are others in the autism spectrum range where it manifests itself in destructive ways

            While difficulties in social interaction are the main result of mild autism, two symptoms are commonly associated with it. The first is oppositional defiant disorder (ODD) and secondly, rage disorders are often associated with ODD. The rage disorders manifest themselves as uncontrolled anger triggered by even the smallest issue. A wrong word or minor action that normal people would ignore triggers a profound rage in these autism spectrum individuals. During these rages, things get destroyed and people get hurt because the person has no control over their actions, sometimes for hours. The part of the brain that says calm down is no longer functioning properly. Road rage over a perceived slight like merging too closely or slowing down at the wrong time is a rage trigger. Normal people would say “no harm, no foul” and keep driving. But autism spectrum people descend into uncontrolled rage.

            And yes, I have personal experience with this side of autism. There is an effective medication, Risperdal, that helps them to control this form of autism, but you need to be diagnosed and most adults have not been. Fortunately we are becoming more aware and our children are getting the help that they need, but there is still a large pool of adults who will never be helped with this form of autism.

          • @Bill Wallace….Sir, I beg to differ with you. I have been a professional in the field for a number of years. Autism and Asperger’s Syndromes are separate dx from ODD according to the DSM-5. ODD was categorized via separate diagnostic criteria beginning with the DSM-III back in the 80s and is separate from the diagnostic criterion by which Autism Spectrum Disorders are clinically diagnosed. ODD, however, though a separate diagnosis, may manifest comorbid with ADHD or other DX, but remains a separate dx unto itself. True, people may suffer anger management issues that lead to violence, especially if they have a gun pact under their gut that makes it easy for them to act impulsively toward another, but by no means does this indicate they have an Autism Spectrum Disorder. The killing between these two men had nothing to do with Autism Spectrum Disorders. Please consult with the current American Psychological Manuel (DSM-5) that lists the diagnostic criteria for Autism Spectrum Disorders to compare with ODD and rage.

          • And you often see a pattern of rage incidents in these autistic adults that often manifests itself as domestic violence.

          • Once again, I beg to differ: Your comment is a generalization, not fact. Domestic violence happens across all sections of people, and culture…it has nothing to do with Autism Spectrum Disorders per se.

          • DSM is merely a guide to mental illness, not a definitive taxonomic document like a botanical classification is. It serves two purposes. The first is to organize thought about mental illness to help physicians narrow their diagnosis with real life input. Often an illness will fit several categories, but the patient particulars provide guidance to the most probable issue. The second is, of course, to provide billing information for the health insurance system.
            But let’s get back to the issue at hand. Are adults who demonstrate ODD and rage disorders mildly autistic? If you show me a kid with ODD and rage disorder, I will show you a kid that is incapable of developing meaningful social interactions with his peers because kids simply don’t put up with that type of crap the way that adults do in other adults. The inability to develop socially is part of the diagnostic criteria for autism and ODD and rage disorder caps the diagnosis. Hence a child who displays these attributes will be diagnosed as autistic. Now, to some extent, kids learn to cope during puberty, but the issues with ODD and rage never really go away. As you probably know autism is an organic brain disorder which will never disappear, but the brain can learn workarounds to some extent. But in past years, when we were not as aware of the entire spectrum of autism, ODD / rage disorder children were merely labeled as difficult kids. Now they are diagnosed as autistic. And if you should have been diagnosed as a child when the symptomology is most discernible, then you are still autistic as an adult. And you can’t seriously believe that an adult who demonstrates ODD and a pattern of rage disorder is capable of normal social interaction with their peers. This is one of the hallmarks of mild autism, even according to DSM.
            Therefore, I stand by my conclusions regarding autistic adults. This speaks to my premise that autism is not on the rise, but awareness is.

          • @ Bill Wallace…Once again, the social/language deficits as they are attributes given diagnostically to individuals with autism are not characterized by ODD, nor rage disorder. You may not agree or like how the DSM-5 lays out the symptoms for the syndrome of Autism, but these are in place for both pratical and legal purposes, set out by the medical sector, and provided as a guide to treatment and the provision of services, just as other condions use a clustering of symptoms to target cancer, heart problems, diabetes, etc. for ultimate treatment . The characteristics by which Autism is dx suggests nothing about ODD symptoms, nor rage.

            To be sure, there are many risk factors for developiing ODD. A number of factors play a role in the development of ODD…. ODD is a complex problem involving a variety of influences, circumstances and possibly genetic components. No single factor causes ODD. Possible risk factors include:

            • Being abused or neglected
            • Exposure to violence
            • Family instability such as occurs with divorce, multiple moves, or changing schools or child care providers frequently
            • Financial problems in the family
            • Harsh or inconsistent discipline
            • Having a parent with a mood or substance abuse disorder
            • Lack of supervision
            • Moms and dads with a history of ADHD, ODD or conduct problems
            • Poor relationship with one or both moms and dads
            • Substance abuse

            Again, one should not generalize Autism with ODD, nor ragem to claim that two people carrying guns entered into road rage, who killed each other, as being products of Autism. As with the general population, someone who has experienced a bad day, or those with AD(H)D, Conduct Disorder, Panic/Anxiety Disorder, Bi-Polar,etc….any individual may be vulnerable to the risk factors leading to sudden, impulsive rage, that coupled with a gun at finger-tip reach, is likely to take his rage out on another person. Autism is not a factor to be generalized in this case.

          • Really
            In my son’s middle school behavior management classroom, the parents to a person, said that their kids were born that way. These were all educated people who display none of the “characteristics” that you cited. They also said that somewhere in their family’s genetic history was a person who displayed ODD and rage disorder characteristics. For my adopted son, it was his birth father. For my wife, it was her grandfather. Her family said that she was difficult from birth, but her parents never displayed any of your “characteristics”. (she passed away from genetically related ovarian cancer). My son has grown into a talented fine young man with no trace of rage disorder because of proper medication and therapy. But he still needs his meds to maintain his composure.

            Everyone also criticized the mental health system for two basic reasons; Accessibility and diagnosis shopping. Because of the insurance company gatekeepers, we all had to fight our way in to receive services. After years of coping and being denied services by gatekeepers who claimed “bad parenting skills” and the crap that you cited, we took the advice of our family physician and forced our way in. He suggested showing up at the ER during one of his rage episodes. Then came a frustrating year of “jump to conclusion” diagnosis shopping which sometimes made the situation worse. Finally a fantastic doctor who actually took the time to observe him made the correct diagnosis and prescribed the correct FDA approved medication and therapy. And his diagnosis was confirmed by the school psychologist who observed him every day. But she was fired because our kid’s mental health is not in the budget any more. But many of his peers are still suffering from diagnosis shopping. Under staffed is no excuse for not properly observing the patient to arrive at the correct diagnosis.

            Now, thanks to saint Ronnie, the public mental health care system is effectively gone. For poor or less educated people, all of the gatekeepers (including private insurance) prevent access to mental healthcare in the name of saving money. They all refuse to believe the parents when they describe the behaviors and instead try to find lame excuses or blame the parents for what is clearly an organic disorder. It’s like the chicken and the egg. How do you cope with a child with these issues, when no help is available? The “characteristics” that you cite begin to come out in the frustrated parents, especially if one of them is also suffering from the same issues. The key is in providing mental health care immediately and proactively. Perhaps if the medical profession took this stuff seriously and insurance companies stopped refusing to cover mental health services, we could make progress. Denial of services leads to the cited issues, because the child’s mental health is the source of the problem. The nonsense that you cited rarely came first.

            And I have fostered kids. It was readily apparent both, that the children had inherent mental health issues and that the birth parents also had managed them very poorly. But considering how hard that we had to fight for the meager mental health services that DHS was willing to provide to a child with known problems, I would submit to you that the only services that the parents ever received from DHS was a visit from the child welfare cops. I also acted as a guardian ad litem and the parent’s universal complaint was no help for their kid’s mental health problems prior to DHS child welfare involvement. It’s too late then. And DHS always fought to keep control of the kids, but also always sought to limit the amount of services that they would provide. If they were serious about family reunification, they would have provided full on mental health services for the entire family long before the welfare cops showed up, but that rarely happened. And yes, the families also may have had other issues that needed integrated help. A monthly visit by a social worker, if even that frequently, is no substitute for real mental health care by real doctors.

            If you and your profession truly believes that nonsense that you just cited, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. And yes, the insurance industry and cheap skate politicians also share blame. But when you as a profession spout this nonsense, it only encourages them. Try to observe and learn, rather than relying on books. It’s time for you to get a clue!

            Proper funding for and access to mental health services is the key to solving our problems, but we only cut and cut. It is an investment that pays dividends in productive healthy people who do not become a lifelong burden to us.

          • @ Bill Wallace…Sir, you have driffed off your original subject in which you suggested that the men who shot each other had Autism which you cited as being inclusive of Oppositional Difiant Disorder and rage. I mantain that Autism is a separate syndrome/disorder from ODD and Rage Disorder. Autism, in fact, is not considered a mental health disorder; it is a neurologic disorder of which no one cause has been determined. Nor is there any ‘one’ known cause for ODD, but they are different diagnoses all together and treatment is different for each. Each can exist co-morbidly with other diagnoses, but Autism is not the same as ODD.

            The causes of ODD may certainly have some genetic roots, as is one of the variables on the list I sent, but as the list indicates, ODD may also be caused by the number of other environmental variables in childhood relationships and home environments, etc. . My own adopted son, now age 40, has Autism and I have been working in the field professionally for many years with individuals having Autism. I brought people out of mental health units who were wrongly diagnosed and wrongly treated for mental health issues whereby I suspected their dx actually to be Aspergers. Given appropriate education, over the ‘mental health’ approach, they have flourished. I began doing this long before Aspergers was understood.

            However, as I have said before, ODD and rage are not part and parcel of the symptoms/characteristics by which Autism is diagnosed. Autism is quite a complex neurologic disorder which, early on, was considered a psychologic disorder until the late 80s when a wonderful Dr. whom I have worked with, was able to do the first pathology research work on the deceased brains of three individuals who were known to have the characteristics of Autism. Her findings led the way to our current understanding and moved the syndrome from a psychologic one to neurlogic in that she was able to see areas of the brain affected at the early age, with the receeding of cells in the brain stem, between ages 2 and 3, when Autism generally is diagnosed,

            I understand your frustration with the mental health system in this country…health insurance companies have not provided coverage; schools are unable to provide supports as they are needed, and society, in general, is not understanding of the needs of individuals suffering from such issues. But, once again, ODD has nothing to do with the diagnostic criteria for Autism, so I stand my ground that the men engaged in this shoot out acted highly impulsively, whereby havinig a gun at their ready disposal, they pulled the trigger of death. This can not be blamed on Autism, for Autism had nothing to do with, nor the characteristics associated with ODD.

          • Oh And the main reason that your argument that these “family characteristics” are causative elements is bogus is that there are significantly more families with your causative “characteristics” with normal kids than those with mentally ill kids.The statistical math just doesn’t work in your favour.

          • Ah, I forgot to make my point of all of this. All of the kids who were treated for autism spectrum based OOD / Rage using FDA approved treatments were successful and left the program to become good high school students. That was about 75% of the kids in the city wide program. Only one student left the program with a different diagnosis. The rest, who are still in diagnosis shopping or truly have other issues are still in supervised educational settings. While this figure is anecdotal, kids talk among themselves about things that concern them and parents do too.

            While this is a small sample, 75% is still a significant number. Can the extant adult population who display ODD / Rage disorders be far behind in the incidence of autism spectrum as the root cause of these issues?

    • Nope, you’ve got it wrong – we can’t be free unless the profitability of the gun industry is protected despite any and all shoot outs and mass murders.

      After all Reagan replaced the values of community with “protecting private profits” and the nation bought it..

  28. “While it may be true — as the NRA says — that a good man with a gun can stop a bad man with a gun, they fail to mention that both may die in the process.”

    Or that the bad man might stop the good man. Or, and this is where the NRA’s premises are most flawed, both men may be neither “bad” nor “good” (life not being a fairy tale or a comic book), but just ordinary men somewhere in between. But the NRA foolishly paints a false picture, putting in the minds of gun owners that they are the “good guy” so that anyone they happen to have a run-in with is therefore a “bad” guy, justifying the use of lethal force to subdue him. Exactly the recipe for disaster that we least need.

  29. I am physically messed up. I really could not fight against most even not physically fit men.

    If someone sees me as a target and attacks me having a weapon of some sort evens the odds. Police are not an option. Even the Supreme court states that police have no obligation to protect – only enforce the law. …anyways, around here the police can be depended upon. They are only about 15 minutes away when seconds count.

    If i had to ‘Duke it out’ with some asshole i would just be a smear on the pavement. Is this what you peaceful gun control people want ?

    • I hate to say it, but if you’re handicapped, you’d probably just be giving the bad guy your gun. Have you thought about a tazer or pepper spray?

      • Also, if the police are supposed to enforce the law, then they need laws to enforce. If everybody on the street can carry around loaded guns, then the police can’t do anything until someone has already started shooting. Wouldn’t it make more sense to not have every jerk on the street carrying a loaded gun in the first place?

    • And if the attacker has a gun you’ll still lose, and your gun will be taken from you and used on other people.

    • I am physically disabled, and I don’t carry a gun. I don’t feel that afraid. Maybe if I had an abusive ex or something, I could see wanting to have some protection, but I don’t fear random violence. Is there a reason you think you’d be seen as a target? Do you think it’s a problem that the police can’t be depended upon?

      I’m sure you have your reasons, but I’m grateful that I live free from so much fear.

    • Not all of us are nuts tmitsss. Unfortunately we can’t seem to find a way to get the guns out of the hands of the nuts. The NRA and their sheep, uh I mean faithful followers won’t let us. I don’t know what the answer is. If you do please let us know.

  30. Lance is dead on James was driving to slow for Robert and this for some reason Robert went totally crazy and shot into James car with his wife and mother or mother inlaw in the vehicle. If someone shoots at me or my family you bet your ass I am shooting back. So sorry for James to happen opon this person that totally lost his mind.

    • Robert wouldn’t have shot the guy’s family. All James did was kill Robert. If James wasn’t armed, Robert would be in prison instead of in the ground. That’s the only difference. Sorry to ruin your fantasy.

    • Jerry, according to the article above, BOTH men exited their vehicle and started arguing before they started shooting at each other. No where does it say, or even imply, that the other family members were targeted. Reading comprehension is a wonderful thing …..

      • Brian you know damned good and well innocents could have been killed even though they weren’t “targeted” so spare me the bullshit. What makes you think these clowns were John Wayne or Dirty Harry? What makes you think the rounds couldn’t ricochet off something and hit someone? What makes you think those two idiots were rational and cool headed enough to take time to aim carefully and fire? I’m an agnostic but I’m tempted to say someone or something was watching over the families and bystanders that day.

  31. I love the way you sum up your articles Mr. Cull. They always seem to drive the point home nicely.

  32. If they’d both been UNARMED, they could have just duked it out and both men likely would have survived.

  33. Moral of the story: Live by the gun, die by the gun. This is what you can expect if America becomes the Wild West again.

  34. So let’s see, wack-job Taylor chases down a local business man who is driving with his family, goes off on him in a parking lot and starts shooting. Pullum, defends himself and his family and pays for it with his life. And most of you people here think that he deserved what he got. I suppose that you would have been happier if Pullum had not been legally armed and his wife and mother-in-law were also kill by the wack-job.
    Good for you Amerikans, we should disarm the legally armed. You will deserve the country that you are trying to get.

    • I can only speak for myself, Lance, but I don’t think that anyone “deserved what he got.” This was a tragedy but it was also an illustration of the folly of allowing so many people to run around armed. This is not the old west, hell, even the old west was not the old west that so many think it was, what you see in the movies and on TV is not what it really was most of those “showdowns” were just plain old fashioned murder, a shot to the back from a hiding place they didn’t meet face to face at high noon and see who could draw the fastest.

    • do you think either one would have been so bold if they knew they both were armed?

    • Say what you want, Lance, but I’m willing to bet 100 bucks that you thought Trayvon Martin got what he deserved. Am I right?

  35. We need more of this. Much more. Every time a right wing shit bag NRA Christian Republican kills another right wing shit bag NRA Christian Republican, America wins.

    • *applause*

    • Yeah, gotta even out all those inner city democrats that kill each other by the dozens every week.

    • Amen brother

    • You are an ignorant, sadistic, immoral person. Calling for more murder? Crawl under a rock and don’t come out.

      • By being a gun advocate, YOU are calling for more murder. Crawl down from your high horse.

        • No. By being a gun advocate he is advocating the Second Amendment. This comment thread should be deleted, as the sentiment here is absolutely disgusting. If I were to say,”We need more of this. Much more. Every time a left-wing socialist CDC-loving Godless Democrat aborts a future left-wing socialist CDC-loving Godless Democrat, America wins.” You’d all be losing your shit.

          Here’s a tip. If you can swap another (or opposite) noun into your vapid foaming-at-the-mouth vitriol, and suddenly it offends you, you probably shouldn’t say it.

          “If you can’t say something nice, you shouldn’t say anything at all.” – Thumper

          • I know this comment is really late but I find this thread really entertaining. Thumper, you just came out against the first amendment in favor of the second amendment. So if they don’t shut up, what you gonna do? Shoot us?

            No need to answer it was rhetorical.

  36. Firearms, some people can carry them their entire lives without having to shoot anyone, and some people can’t have one for ten minutes without putting a hole in their own foot. It all comes down to discipline and self-control (and training).

    Any time anyone asks me if they should buy a gun, I tell them that if they have to ask then they shouldn’t own a firearm. The conversation can change from there, but that’s my default answer. If you are questioning your ability to control yourself with a firearm, don’t get one. Please. Save a life; maybe your own.

    A gun is not a threat, or a toy, or a status symbol. It doesn’t make you cool, or a gangster, or an assassin. A gun has one purpose. To kill. Well, and maybe put holes in paper. As its owner, the decision, and any and all responsibilities for that decision, are on you. Be you a hunter shooting game, a cop on duty, a citizen in a dangerous city, or a degenerate with no value for anyone’s life but your own, if that. It just seems that somewhere along the line, we stopped holding people accountable. Plea bargains and deals are all the rage, why fight a case and maybe lose when you can guarantee a small win and keep up your ratio?

    Four Rules of Firearms.
    1. Treat every gun as if it’s loaded, even if it isn’t.
    2. Don’t point it at anything you don’t want destroyed.
    3. Don’t touch the trigger until you are about to shoot.
    4. Be sure of your target, and what is beyond it. You are responsible for the full flight path of your bullet.

    (Unless you’re a cop.)

    • Self control???? Look at the addiction rate in this country. You think people are going to have any more self control with a gun?? Self control eludes most Americans. We have entitlement issues as a society.

    • Cynthia R Dunnaway Standard

      arizonaguy87,the most sensible answer to this gun business,I have ever seen. I used to carry long before oc or ccw. And was fearful that someone was going to make me lose my cool and I end up killing someone. Not once(even after using my weapon one time)did it ever occur to me,that I would miss(as I did)I would end up hitting something(thank God,it was an object,not an innocent bystander). After all that,I still carried for many more years,but finally gave up my gun 7 years ago. I believe in the 2nd amendment,but everyone does not need or have the capabilities to carry a gun. Thank you again for your most sensible answer. I truly hope you respond to God Bless the President of the United States on FB witht the same answer. Alot of people need to see your comment.

  37. We’d never have this problem if bullets cost $900 a pop. It’s not gun control, it’s BULLET control. You really really really have to hate someone to shoot them. But then make non lethal bullets like 50 cents each. This would solve SO MUCH.

  38. That’s a shame….

  39. I know I should not laugh at something like this, but I have to admit that it is funny.

  40. You all are a bunch of morons. All of you people are to ignorant to be alive. Two men die and all you can do is twist and spin the tragedy into a political tool to further an agenda. The man that followed Pullum into the parking lot was an idiot also. You people are no better. Pullum used his firearm in self defense after being attacked and tragically died. The other moron also died and while I have no feelings for this it is still shameful that you heartless people who claim to hold all life sacred and special and worth fighting to preserve instead celebrate the death of two people. All of you should be ashamed to be alive.

    • Whatever happened to people duking it out with fists? There should be no firearms to settle an argument, lest you want to go back to the days of the OK Corral. Both of them were idiots and paid the ultimate price. If this is the kind of society you advocate for, what more can we say?

      • Hitting each other with fists doesn’t make either one of them right or wrong either. Just saying.

        • No, but GENERALLY, it results in fewer deaths. But maybe more court cases, since there are survivors to press charges against. The prison-industrial complex should be clamoring for gun control for this reason alone.

    • If neither had firearms, both would still be alive.

      • Not necessarily, the deaths would have just been harder. And there would have been a much greater chance that one lived. It is still quite easy to kill with a knife, bat, Maglite, etc, but it is also easier to defend yourself against those weapons.

        • You are mistaken, it is NOT easy to kill with a knife unless you have been properly trained and are in good physical condition, ditto for a bat, if the other party is much bigger he’ll probably take the bat from the attacker. An the maglite, well you’d better have enough strength and hit in the right place, quite complicated really.

  41. If either one had been unarmed, the survival chances of both would have increased. One having a gun caused a dangerous situation. Both being armed would cause both to “shoot in self defense”. A fine example of how owning a gun got someone killed when perhaps he would have made it home with a bloody nose if he wasn’t (or wouldnt have had the guts to pull over in the first place unarmed)

  42. With all the talk of another government shutdown, Syria, etc. it’s refreshing to hear some good news once in awhile. The phrase “From my cold dead hands” seems to ring true in this instance. Thank you Bob.

  43. Why don’t you f*cktards go teabag each other instead of wasting sane Americans’ time with this shit?

  44. It can’t be the guns. We need to make sure all cars are registered and licensed, that everyone has had their safety training for how to operate a motor vehicle, and even carries insurance to make sure that if there is an accident the victim will be reimbursed. That will definitely make sure that incidents like this will never happen.

    Oh, wait…

  45. Oh geez…such responsible gun owners there. Carrying a gun around in your car will keep you safe. Yea…right.

    • obviously, yes it will. If he hadn’t been able to defend his wife and mother as he died in an unprovoked attack, there would have been 3 dead innocents instead of a hero and a scumbag.

  46. I want their ammo

  47. Two fewer armed morons to be concerned about.

  48. Natural selection at work.

  49. The obvious problem was that there weren’t enough guns at the scene of the incident. Somehow more guns and bigger guns would have resulted in more safety. Don’t ask me how just believe.

    • Well, if his wife and his mother had guns. . .BIG guns. . .I mean, that’s how it works in the movies. Movies and real life are pretty much the same, right?

    • Well, if Mr. Pullum’s mother in law had had her semi with her, she could have taken out the bad guy (i.e., Taylor) and saved the good guy.

  50. I am usually a compassionate person, however this is one instance that leaves me feeling only disgust. Stupid, ignorant people can shoot at one another all day long, but do it where innocent bystanders can’t be hurt or killed! I don’t feel sorry for either of the two dead idiots…period!

  51. Raji the Green Witch

    Maybe all the gun nuts will end up shooting each other and thin out the herd to manageable levels. We can always hope. Unfortunately, innocent people are going to eventually get caught in the cross fire.

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